Reply to “Bye, Opera ….” by Ivos

As the forum thread from Ivos is closed I just put this big piece of text here into my blog.

I think I understand Ivos and I'll reply to the starting post. Maybe Ivos will receive notification regardless which email-client or browser he is using now. I'll not comment all the former answers, although at least some of them had useful hints to solve or work around some problems or enrich this discussion in other ways. …

Originally posted by Ivos:

The top of uncomfort was the "upgrade" to version 9. So many essential things stopped working: sites which could be opened in previous versions could not suddenly be opened now, sites stopped remembering registration, Opera freezed for few seconds every now and then (when scrolling, typing etc.) etc. … So many complaints around – the replies here and the action from the developers quite unsatisfactory.

IMHO with any major software release there is some risk for bugs in the first time. Opera yesterday released V9.01 and Firefox has V1.506 on the ftp-server since yesterday and a lot of applications have version numbering like VX.xy with y<>0. The reason is normally bug fixes for the older releases. If you want a really stable and mostly bugfree system you should wait with not-security updates until there is some more confidence in the new version is mostly stable and bugfree. It is not just fun that companies wait a very long time until updating to more current software releases.
(well, it's been unfortunate that a crash bug for Opera 8.54 was reported to be an security issue and Opera's official reply said there will no bugfix releases for Opera 8.x)

Maybe Opera9.01 already solves some of your problems. And maybe you'll find Firefox2.00 annoying and switch back to Opera?

Regarding to the freezes: I already had freezes with older Opera while M2 was checking email or RSS. With Opera9 additional freezes occur when a download comes to it's end. For some very annoying dayly crashes with Opera 8.5x I got an Opera support answer to do a single user installation (which helped), and that it is most probably a windows issue. And although I don't think it is a good excuse to offer an option (as default) that is not always working because Windows has its known flaws in this point, the solution was sufficient for me. Opera is relying a lot on the underlaying OS – that has it's problems but also great benefits in aspect of small size, speed and reasonable resource usage.

I read reports about more problems – mostly related to some plugin, the cache, cookies or a messed up installation. So solutions related to Opera include deleting history, cache or cookies, resetting Opera profile or do a new installation. In this sequence you can try to get a stable and satisfying Opera again. And solutions related to the OS advise to do a single user installation, exclude Opera from Firewall and virus checks, defragment the disk – in no specific order – because all this things can slow down or even damage Opera (in general this is not different from other browsers, although I got the impression Opera is even more vulnerable to OS-faults, because it's using more of it's functions).

Originally posted by Ivos:

The M2 ,mail client also became a kind of headache. Without any obvious reason I completely lost important mails from a whole one month ("message body cannot be dowloaded"), the search function works quite terribly (finds always only a part of the searched items). Kind of mess in the stored emails (endless number of folders and files) without mails being actually sorted in real folders (sent, received etc.) was also quite scary. Impossibilty to forward a html email is also very uncomfortable.

I experienced the same problems with the search function of emails (as you described in your thread as topic starter). I got the reply from support that there will be improvements in V9 that might help (this was already some time ago). I still like the philosophy of M2 (which is quite similar to the philosophy of praised Gmail), but I looked around for some better solution. I found The Bat and Thunderbird to be a lot less suited for my needs (with The Bat being the better application than Thunderbird). So I will stick with M2 and work around some flaws: now I'm used to manually search emails with the contacts as access points and sorted by date. And I hope M2 will improve in future since before V9 there was very few development on this part. HTML mail is already in the roadmap.

I also lost the emails of one month this year – sent and incoming for one account. As I could examine it has been a really unlucky connection of interacting applications and was not really the fault of Opera. I'm testing a XP-Utility (TU2006) and this application caused a block of my firewall (older outpost2.7) for several applications including Opera. The according mbs file was 0kB afterwards and I lost the whole content ("message body cannot be downloaded"). Luckily Opera stores the files in different files. Did you ever had a problem with an Outlook pst-file? It's just crazy, everything is lost if you don't manage to restore it. I didn't try Thunderbird/The Bat enough to tell whether there are better data consistency functions (I don't think so).
Since my lost emails (indeed I lost only some partly important sent emails, because I leave the emails on the mail-server and could redirect them) I improved my backup strategy (using Microsofts SyncToy to backup the Opera folders (and others) regularly to an external disk, doing an image from time to time and do a server-side forwarding of my more important received emails (so I have most of my emails 4 times, not because of paranoia but because in case of damage I have more than one way to restore them – it is always a lot of work) and send my emails as often as easy possible via my Gmail account, because even when I send emails with my email client (M2) they are stored online at Gmail.

I had an even more worrying occurance with Opera's M2: one received email dissapeared without any reason – I replied multiple times to (parts of) the same unread email and some minutes after my last reply I couldn't find it again. This was the trigger for my support request (where I put in all my questions above, too) and I didn't receive a satisfying answer (so I didn't ask again).
My guess for this problem is an wrong relation in the mail-database to a sent email to another receipient while I still wrote on my reply open in a seperate tab.
Reasons for my assumptions are: in the contacts view point the in the meantime sent email was shown with the contact of the sender of my lost email and not with the receipient of this email. It looks pretty similar to all the nasty sent mail in the drafts folder (if you delete it in drafts it is gone in sent, too). In a wrong attempt to resolve the problem I deleted the sent email – and probably with it the prove for the wrong connection. And I could not reproduce this again, I only remember one other very similar happening where the text of a newsletter was appended to my reply to a private email (but I think that time it could have been problems with my anti-virus software (AVG?))
If some Opera-dev is interested in my support request: ID-number:551292 Lost Email (&sent mails in draft-view &crashes with 8.5 &find mails)
This has all been with pre-Opera9 M2 – I'll have to test whether I can delete the drafts (or new drafts) now, without deleting the sent email and I have to watch if similar problems will occur again. And at least with my experiences at work with Outlook some years ago Opera performs quite well – I got several reports about lost emails or unaccessible pst-files in Outlook and experienced enough problems myself.

Originally posted by Ivos:

I am also not sure about the very basic question: should all the websites adjust to Opera or should rather Opera adjust to all the websites ?
Why so many websites can be easily opened in all other browsers but bring problems in Opera ?

I strongly suppose that you are speaking of Internet Explorer and Firefox (and other Gecko based browsers) when you are writing about "all other browsers".
Well, similar questions are to be heard pretty often. And the answers are kind of simple but multiple and inside of complex processes. The solutions are not that simple.

Why websites are not displayed correct in Opera.

1. A webpage is not tested in Opera AND not developed according to web standards (don't validate). This is happening pretty often because to get the vast majority of visitors it is about enough to test in IE + FF and it is quite a lot of work for web-designers to have some design tweaks look the same in all browsers. Also a lot of WISYWIG and CMS tools are used and doesn't always produce clean code (and the developing of templates is even more difficult). Additionally some web designers are just not aware of other browsers like Opera (although I think this is a minority). This point includes the possibility of special code for special browsers and just leave out (forget) Opera and send some different code like for older browsers (or even a error message or a blank page). Coding according to standards would be a solution, but standards are not easy for everybody, are sometimes badly implemented into HTML-generating tools (MS Word and Frontpage are probably worst), sometimes do not deliver what someone wants to do and could sometimes be a lot of extra work, especially because you most probably need a lot of hacks for the most used IE which probably tries to set own standards
2. A webpage is developed on the edge of possibilities of the browsers (or with special add ins/extensions/plugins especially developed for special browsers) and it is a lot of work to make other browsers capable of the same thing, because there are differencies in rendering/interaction or there would be the need to have some or a lot of extra work to have the same stuff work in Opera and other small browsers. Some pages work only in IE, some only in FF, some in IE and FF and no other browser … In this category there are a lot of very popular pages from google, yahoo …
3. bug's in Opera: some pages had been tested in Opera8.x (maybe even with some special hack to work around some specific problem in this Opera version and Opera9 solved the problem) and Opera9 now works different and the page doesn't work properly in V9 any more. Or there is a new bug breaking formerly working pages. Probably this is a reason for a number of pages that don't work in Opera9 the first time after the release.
4. There are pages where Opera has no access on purpose. Especially Microsoft is doing a lot to exclude non IE-browsers (and there are others, too).

The same problems will apply to any other minor browsers and some of the problems also apply to the big browsers (IE+FF). Look out what Microsoft does to help or enforce web designers to make their pages work in IE7.

The main reason for the pages work in IE and FF (and other Gecko based browsewrs) is because they have enough attention and market share that it is a must for webpages to work in this browsers to reach the majority of people on the web. Therefore they are tested in this browsers and if it doesn't work it will be changed to work – including the use of browser sniffing to have different versions for Firefox and IE. Neither Firefox is built to display most of the webpages nor IE is built to display the real world pages. The pages just happen to work there because someone opened the page in this browser and could see that they finally work as expected. And both browsers have probably more bugs and rendering problems than Opera – they are just not triggered, because of the fitting web development. Therefore there often is to be read about the requirement to test pages in Opera. Or at least develop according to web standards (most pages would look good). And of course it is a foul to exclude Opera from code it could easily display, because of intended or not intended exclusion with browser sniffing.

Originally posted by Ivos:

The usual reply with a raised finger (and tiny arrogance) is: "that website has some wrong script which is not within high Opera standards". But who cares ? Is Opera some aristocratic castle where some simple pedestrians are not allowed ? It represents just an extreme minority of internet users, why should every webmaster care so much to do something extra special just to fit Opera ? I want to be able to see every website and not to be troubled by a fact that the whole site or its menus or forms do not work (but only in Opera !!)

I think this ideas lead in the wrong direction, althougth they are probably derived from some one sided prior answers to problems with pages in Opera.
Only if Opera is excluded by browswer sniffing although it would just work perfect with the code delivered to other browsers those annoyed answers are quite understandable.
There is no need to make pages special for Opera – if pages are made according to web standards it would be much easier. And with Firefox supporting and focussing standards, the standards-quality of the code is already improving and more and more pages just look good and work in Opera.
Think of the alternatives: Make all browsers take IE rendering as standard? Make Opera masking as IE or FF (would solve a lot of sniffing problems but simpler browser statistics will make people think nobody is viewing this pages with Opera and just go on with special coding for other browsers – with FF and bigger market share of Opera the life of web designers will be easier delivering one standard compliant version and one IE version or at least some IE hacks)?

Originally posted by Ivos:

To my amazement – Firefox browser works smoothly and quickly, without any of the problems known in Opera, does not freeze now and then and I must say that the sites are being open reasonably faster than in Opera 9

As I wrote above just wait for the next major release and compare it with a clean install of Opera (like your FF was probably a clean install and assuming Opera will not have its next major version the same time). Your experience will most probably just be the other way round.

Originally posted by Ivos:

Thunderbird is also a big relief – all its functions work normally and reliably (including search), everything is in real folders, labeling and flagging the mails is much more advanced, you can work with html emails etc.etc.

Working with text only emails has some advantages. But if you strongly prefer HTML emails you're probably better off with some other mail client. Although I suppose with some more experience you will learn about the problems in the new client, too. There are a lot in Thunderbird, but if it fits your need – it is your choice.
M2 was treated as a side product in Opera the last years with nearly no development. This is changing with Opera9 and maybe with Opera10 you will change back. I really like the philosophy of Opera M2, but if there will be some much better email client in future I may switch, but most probably I'd nevertheless stay with Opera as a browser.

Originally posted by Ivos:

I am not aware of any single thing (within a normal everyday usage) where Opera would bring any advantage, anything better than for example Firefox. Only extra annoyances and problems come to my mind. I somehow feel, that a price for bearing them is often a feeling of some "exclusivity" and self importance – that "I" use something special, better than the usual crowds. Kind of Harlely Davidson or Apple club feeling.

There are a lot of reasons why I prefer Opera above any other browser. In the first time it just was because it was the smallest and fastest choice for my slow computers. Learning about all the small things that make my surfing easier makes me stick with Opera, although Firefox has some advantages especially more pages are tested in it (ergo shown properly) and there are some extensions delivering functionality that are not possible with Opera, or at least not similar easily. But the same time extensions have strong disadvantages in aspect of speed, stability and usability (especially I hate the menues for being bloated because of some extensions). As power user I have special needs and I like the speed I could go with Opera (that's not only about rendering but also usability). My father likes "serial" surfing and it is much better for him slowing things down and give him time to see what's happening (he is really confused about me opening tabs in background and already having two tabs open). He does not have an advantage to use Opera and just for security reasons I installed Firefox on his computer. I recommend Firefox to all users that are not very experienced and when it is more important that all of the visited web pages work. And I recommend Opera to most of the people that think Firefox is a great browser. I don't think I'm a special geek because I use Opera, indeed I think Firefox is some really great work, like Linux and OpenOffice, especially because it is done by a community that is not payed, with a new philosophy of developing software (although this seems to change, especially in aspect of Firefox). And it is really a good piece of software. And I use Firefox myself for special purposes (for pages that don't work in Opera – often enough they don't work in Firefox either, for some web-development-tools as some are easier to use compared to Opera's WebDevSetup, and of course for testing my own webpages – latter is the only reason I use IE besides MS updates).

Originally posted by Ivos:

I do not have this need. I just wanted to use a nice, fast and reliable browser/mail client and in case of Opera I even paid for it (having a faith in it).
Now it disappointed me a lot. Bringing quite useless things (like "widgets" or direct torrent download) and letting many fundamentals to fail – enough for me.

That sounds like you maybe come back to Opera pretty soon – not with emails but for the browser – nice, fast and reliable, at least when you don't try to be an early adopter and take some month before updating to the next major release (some people had the same experience with Firefox, just ask in their forum). But of course Firefox is probably about the same for your needs and if you are happy with it it is ok. As the slogan for Opera9 sais: Your web, your choice.

Originally posted by Ivos:

Have a nice time and maybe see you after some time at Mozilla forum 🙂 (which is actually very friendly and helpful)

I hope you are happy with whatever browser and email-client you use and you find some nice help in your new forum. The FirefoxHypeCommunity's probably a lot bigger in this days and I suppose it is something special there, like easy riders on their Harley Davidson freeing themselfs from commercial software – at least in their heads.